Is finishing a dog to akc fc still a big acomplishment

[Pine Lakes]

Wildcat, it is truely unfortunate that you feel that way. Your opinions and input are respected atleast by myself and surely others as well. My point is to turn those thoughts into action. Get involved, have a voice, and get licensed to judge if you're not already, or become an officer in a club. Everyone's input and effort are needed and wanted. I can only do what working a swing shift with alot of overtime, 3 athletically involved children, and a working wife will allow. I wish I could do more now, but it will have to wait a few years so I'm not trying to be hypocritical. I'll be judging 15" females at North Central next April. I can guarantee everyone that there will be no favortism or special considerations in my judging. That doesn't mean I'm perfect, just that my intentions are. I also guarantee you that there will be a few people that disagree with the other judge and myself, and the end results. Hell, there will probably be disagreements with the other judge and myself for that matter, lol. We'll run 'em til' we agree or fall over dead. I'll win out though because my legs are longer as I'm judging with a midget, lol. The Mid-West Association is not perfect by any means, I do however, feel it is the best formant and association available, even with its flaws.

[Don Smith]

WILDCAT FAN I'M GOING TO AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS POST,I HAVE JUDGED IN THE MIDWEST FOR SEVERAL YEARS AND I HONESTLY DO BELIEVE THAT THE DOGS ARE GETTING WAY TO ROUGH.NOT TRYING TO BE NEGATIVE HERE BUT JUST STATING MY OPINION.LIKE YOU, I DON'T REALLY CARE THAT MUCH ABOUT TRAILING ANYMORE AT THIS TIME BECAUSE I THINK THE DOGS ARE PRETTY DARN ROUGH. I HAVE SEEN A FEW DOGS AT THE TRAILS THAT I'VE BEEN TO THIS YEAR THAT I WOULD CONSIDER GOOD RABBIT DOGS THAT YOU COULD TAKE HUNTING AND LISTEN TO THEM POUND THE RABBIT,AND THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO GO OVER TO ANOTHER COUNTY TO FIND THE CHECK JMO.DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS BUT I LIKE A DOG THAT RUNS THE RABBIT AND WORKS IN CLOSE TO FIND THE CHECK BEFORE HE OR SHE STARTS REACHING OUT.AND JUST FROM BEING A JUDGE I KNOW THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO SEE EVERYTHING THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE,BUT FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN AT SOME OF THE TRIALS THIS YEAR WHATEVER IS UP FRONT SOME SEEM TO THINK THAT IS ALWAYS THE WINNING HOUND,THAT IS NOT THE CASE ALL THE TIME.BUT LET'S GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE,IF THAT DOG ON THE FRONT IS RUNNING THE RABBIT HARD AND IS MAKING THE TURNS THAT'S MY DOG,BUT IF THAT DOG ON THE FRONT IS RUNNING THE RABBIT,CONTINUES TO KEEP GETTING HIS A$$ BUSTED FROM THE DOGS TURNING IT BEHIND HIM THAT DOG IS GOING TO THE TRUCK.GUYS WE REALLY DO NEED TO TRY AND PROMOTE RABBIT DOGS THAT CAN STAY AFTER THE RABBIT ITSELF,WALK IT WHEN THEY HAVE TO AND DRIVE THE HECK OUT OF IT WHEN SCENTING ALLOWS.GOOD LUCK TO ALL!!

[TC]

5-B Definitions
Desirable Qualities
Pursuing ability is shown by a proficiency for keeping
control of the trail while making the best possible progress. Game should be pursued rather than merely followed, and actions should indicate a determined effort to make forward progress in the surest, most sensible manner by adjusting speed to correspond to conditions and circumstances. Actions should be positive and controlled,
portraying sound judgment and skill. Progress should be proclaimed by tonguing. No hound can be too fast, provided the trail is clearly and accurately followed. At a check, hounds should work industriously, first close to where the loss occurred, then gradually and thoroughly extending the search further afield to regain the line.


Accuracy in trailing is the ability to keep consistent
control of the trail while making the best possible
progress. An accurate trailing hound will show a marked tendency to follow the trail with a minimum of weaving on and off, and will display an aptness to turn with the trail and to determine direction of game travel in a positive manner.

Competitive spirit is the desire to outdo running mates. It is a borderline quality that is an asset only to the hound that is able to keep it under control and to concentrate on running the game rather than on beating other hounds.
The overly competitive hound lacks such qualities as adaptability, patience, independence and cooperation, and in its desire to excel is seldom accurate.

5-C Definitions—29
Faulty Actions

Swinging is casting out too far and too soon from the last point of contact, without first making an attempt to regain scent near the loss. It is a gambling action, quite often indicating over-competitiveness or an attempt to gain unearned advantage over running mates.

Skirting is purposely leaving the trail in an attempt to gain a lead or avoid hazardous cover or hard work. It is cutting out and around true trailing mates in an attempt to intercept the trail ahead.

Leaving checks is failure to stay in the vicinity of a loss and attempt to work it out, bounding off in hopes of encountering the trail or new game. Leaving checks denotes lack of patience and perseverance.

[toldyouso]

Listen I started running AKC in the late 80 and early 90s and that was the type of dog that was placing crazy hard hitting skirting cutting and thats what i run accomplishment over style. Then evrything changed in the late 90s and they started placing cleaner less gambling dogs. I made a decission not to change the style of dog I run and went to little pack and now in PKC. Listen it will change again as the judges get older and then they will start judging a different style dog. But if you r going to change your style dogs to fit any format you my man will be flipping your kennels like changing your underwear. When faces change and years go by things change. I do not know wheather thats right or wrong I just know thats the way it is.

[BCBeagles]

I guess you just have to be of the understanding that it is subjective. You are subject to be judged by the individual willing to do it and win or lose you are going to get a chance. If your hound is putting in work they have a chance. That chance is increased or decreased by who is judging and that is part of the whole sport in general. We would all have the same style of hound if it were black and white, it is however, grey for now and probably into infinity. Some like one style some like others. Go and run your hounds and enjoy it win or lose and you will have a lot better time with it. Bring a prepared hound, in any format, for that matter and you have just as good a chance as the next guy. JMO.

[Greg Wells]

Good post Don Smith; pick the rough dogs up & keep the tight check working, line runners down & you'll see some good running. It's not rocket science; forget who owns the dog; the mission is to find the best dog of the group. True friends will still be your friend even if you pick thier dog up. Long live the Mid-West. Toldyouso, I commend you for keeping & running your style, but the Mid-West judges should be looking for close, honest check hounds like the rule book describes.

[toldyouso]

Greg I am not at all saying one way or the other. Could really care less. Fact all formats were designed to promote a dog that puts MEAT on the table and you can do that with alot of dogs. Fast Slow Line dogs cutting cheating slashing reaching and ect. Your rule book was wrote to promote a hunting dog. Now yes I agree 100 percent you will win more often then lose with a more conservitive hound but you must agree on the right rabbit that reaching cutting slicing dog can make a pack look pretty bad. I just like that type of dog and way before you came to field trials thats the type of dog that was placing and winning. I do not know if that was right or wrong and i am not trying to argue my post was just that this man should not try and change what he runs because it all comes back around sooner or later and i have been told by some pretty good people in AKC midwest that the dog that i am running now is doing well. Have no intentions of jumping back into the midwest I have just seen it happen with my own eyes. Consistances in most organizations will not excist because judges change and new people will always see it a little bit different. Greg you know I do not care how the rabbit comes back to the gun just bring it back where i can shot it. LOL And I do not have all day so make it quick.LOL

[Bobby Vest]

Now the post is getting interesting and people are coming out of the woodwork and voicing their opinion and I don't see any body bashing at all. In my opinion this is what it takes to improve an organization. Good post Josh and I for one am enjoying it. Don Smith I like what you said and I feel it can be that way if enough people that are well thought of by AKC pass the word to AKC. Nothing will change unless people speak up.

[Ohiohntr]

Dang it...I was going to stay out of this but I just can't do it because these "generalizations" with no actual substance to back them up kills me.

Since the talk of the 15" male class seems to be the majority of the "rough hounds winning and placing" chatter....Well, I like to look at actual facts and not generalizations like everyone tends to do on threads like these. I will only use one example because I have personally judged the dog with 3 different judges...picked him up once, put a win on him once, placed him another time....if anyone on this thread has seen FC Pattersons Bullseye run and thinks he is a rough hound....well, you need to re-evaluate things. Bull is a very nice rabbit hound, hunts hard, runs the whole line, is willing to slot up, has great checkwork ability, and runs the rabbit according to the AKC rule book.

Newsflash....he is leading the Midwest points...hmmmm....what was everyone saying again.

I re-read the thread again and there was also chatter of the 13" female class being "rough". Let's talk about new FC Seger's Shooting Shadow....anything but rough!!! I judged her and put a place on her...if memory serves me right Don's dog just edged Shadow out of the win that day. Pure 100% line running machine and is probably one of the hardest hunting little dogs I have judged.

If you look at the consistancy of the hounds in the MW placing week in and week out and if you judged the dogs...you would see that as a group of judges we are pretty darn close. Sure on huge high flying good scenting days dogs will win and then the next week on good tight running they will look like rough running idiots but that is where adaptablility comes in to play, if that high flyer does not adapt and tighten down then he will not last long that particular day. Conditions, running grounds, how the rabbits run....all of this comes into play when you are presented a group of hounds to evaluate. The good ones who run rabbits by the rules week in and week out will rise to the top....and if you study the results and do not look at a single instance, you will see that I am correct.

[Greg Wells]

Bullseye is good one & Ky Lucky too; I don't think they run wild & rough . The 15" dogs get rough, but only the consistent line runners win enough to get thier FC title in my opionion. The Kimbrel's FC dog is close line runner too. It's something to be proud of; very few hounds get thier FC title in the Mid-West. I doubt 5 % of hounds entered in the Mid-West ever get thier FC title.

[JCM]

I have attended a couple of trials every couple of years since the start of the Midwest. The thing I admired most was how it has promoted clean but aggressive dogs. Although they weren't always my style I admired how the Midwest promoted this type of dog.

There is no doubt this has changed recently. The Midwest ran out of judges. Three or four years ago the same guys judged every weekend. Look now and every trial has a LP judge or two. A lot of these guys are excellent judges but they may not have the history and training of the AKC standard and judging to a standard. Naturally the dogs winning will reflect this. If a guy learned to judge by scoring checks he is going to bring back different dogs than someone who learned to judge by comparing dogs to a standard.

I would like to see the Midwest judges be more critical just to keep a pool of aggressive but clean dogs out there for breeding potential down the road. However, if rougher dogs keep winning you may see a lot of them show up, giving judges no choice.

The bottom line to me--either the Midwest comes up with more judges and does a better job training judges, or there will be all kinds of inconsistency and a lot more rough dogs winning.

[Jon Gibeaut]

I've been judging trials for some years now. I started out in the Appalachian gundog association. That association folded and I moved onto the mid-west. The mid_west has some darn good dogs in it but you got to get off the front end to find them. Just because your leading the pack don't mean you're doing it right, you've got to be able to control it. It seems like everybody is all worried about where there dog runs in a pack, everybody wants the front. I believe accomplishment over style is one of the worst things ever put in the AKC rule book. Yes you've got to have score to move forward but you should do it right. A cutting, slashing, swinging dog will not last long with me. Some of the best line running dogs I've seen came from the mid-west, I personally watched Brent's Primetime and smokes creek Cyrus Magee run in a brace and it was the best hound work I've ever seen. For the past 3 years, from what I seen, the dogs have certainly gotten wider. Hounds go into a check and they have no point of loss. Alot has to do with how the rabbit runs, good check dog likes a quick turning rabbit where a front end dog wants one to line out, but the quality of dog is still there it Just all depends on what type of hound you want to train and run. Field trial judges all look for something different but they've got to judge what's on the ground, like it or not, they've got to place it. The mid-west is and will continue to be one of the best organizations out there just because of the quality of good people that run it. Like it now or like it then but nothing's perfect and as long as humans are involved there will always be a conflict of interest.

[mybeagles]

Well put Jon....

I have noticed the "speed" debate looms over every association.

Has it always been the topic of the day? 30 years ago were guys complaining about hounds being too ruff......or too conservative.....

Hope to many of you at the trials this upcoming year and I hope you have offered to help out your local club in some way. I want to make it a point to meet some of the board members this year.....if you see me out there come say hi.....Ill be the guy with 3 kids and an empty wallet......

Mybeagles

[Pine Lakes]

I've been judging trials for some years now. I started out in the Appalachian gundog association. That association folded and I moved onto the mid-west. The mid_west has some darn good dogs in it but you got to get off the front end to find them. Just because your leading the pack don't mean you're doing it right, you've got to be able to control it. It seems like everybody is all worried about where there dog runs in a pack, everybody wants the front. I believe accomplishment over style is one of the worst things ever put in the AKC rule book. Yes you've got to have score to move forward but you should do it right. A cutting, slashing, swinging dog will not last long with me. Some of the best line running dogs I've seen came from the mid-west, I personally watched Brent's Primetime and smokes creek Cyrus Magee run in a brace and it was the best hound work I've ever seen. For the past 3 years, from what I seen, the dogs have certainly gotten wider. Hounds go into a check and they have no point of loss. Alot has to do with how the rabbit runs, good check dog likes a quick turning rabbit where a front end dog wants one to line out, but the quality of dog is still there it Just all depends on what type of hound you want to train and run. Field trial judges all look for something different but they've got to judge what's on the ground, like it or not, they've got to place it. The mid-west is and will continue to be one of the best organizations out there just because of the quality of good people that run it. Like it now or like it then but nothing's perfect and as long as humans are involved there will always be a conflict of interest.

Please don't take this as a personal attack or disrespectful as that is not my intention, but this is precisely how the Brace Era started. Just because it's not in front doesn't make it more accurate. In my opinion if a dog that is on the front is out of control then your so called "check dogs" should be breaking it off in his backside and he won't be around long. If they're not, then they are either not running the line and/or are UBGF dogs or worse. You can't focus on one dog because it happens to be in front. Keep eliminating the front dog and what does that leave you with over the span of a few years? Now if a dog is deliberately leaving a check area, leaving a check mute, standing around watching packmates, or laying false lines just to be the frontrunner, or just plain can't handle the front then he has to go. I haven't been to as many trials lately due to family and work, but I think these claims are incapable of being backed with consistant proof. Does one slip through the cracks occasionally or have "its day" like every dog is said to have, sure. Conditions of the day are a large factor, but rarely is the running "head high". The overall quality of field champions in the Mid-West is undisputible, which should be looked to improve upon always. Congratulations to those that have finished a dog in the Mid-West, it's not any easy task and you and your hounds deserve more respect than what is being given here. The same goes to those that have judged, thanks for your hard work and dedication not matter what "type" of dog you prefer (as long as it's not slow).

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

Finally a post that makes sense. And i agree 100 percent with Jcm last post.