Is finishing a dog to akc fc still a big acomplishment

[JCM]

Congratulations to those that have finished a dog in the Mid-West, it's not any easy task and you and your hounds deserve more respect than what is being given here. The same goes to those that have judged, thanks for your hard work and dedication not matter what "type" of dog you prefer.

I don't think anyone one here is bashing AKC Field Champions, or guys that judge. I personally think it is a tremendous accomplishment to finish a dog in the Midwest. And, I think judges deserve all the credit in the world for giving so much effort to make trialing possible.

This is one of the most interesting discussions I have seen on this board. To me, it's all about changes in style, and the old argument of style vs. accomplishment. Although I very seldom trial in the Midwest, I have run a lot of dogs that compete in SPO, and run against a whole lot more. I think the Midwest Association has done an excellent job for a number of years in promoting top notch rabbit dogs. I would just hate to see that change by allowing rough dogs to dominate (even though some of my dogs might fit better. ).

[Goforth]

To all the people complaining....Are you a licensed AKC judge? If not you missed a good chance last year, Central Kentucky Beagle Club had a judging semiar that was open to everyone.

Oh yeah thats right, I had probably 100 calls from people wanting to attend and 15 people showed up.

So lets fix ourselves before we all go trying to save the world.

[Roseland]

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[toldyouso]

Agree 100 percent the problems we have in all our organizations is training r judges on what we r looking for in each organization period. We have little pack judges judging Midwest trials and running Little pack we have midwest guys judging little pack and running midwest there fore you will have a different style of hound winning or loosing if you may. I do not know if that is right or wrong I will say this I DO NOT THINK THE BUDDY JUDGING IS HAS BAD AS PEOPLE WHAT TO BELIEVE IT IS. I just think this becomes a comp out for why u lost me being one that has used this excuse. I just hate to lose. This being said I believe if everyone keeps a open mind it will only make all organizations better. Listen to new ideas good or bad and try to strive for perfection.

[Casey Harner]

I do have a question for the handlers questioning the judges's views. How much of the race do.you guys see? How can you tell which dog is rough if your not seeing anything being in the gallery? If your the judge you can see more. I always love hearing someone say back in the gallery, I think I won. Just because your dog sounds good from the gallery doesn't mean your dog is getting it all.


My question is how much race are you actually seeing as a handler in the gallery.

Unless your seeing 95% of the race, I don't understand how ppl are saying dogs are being so rough.


I am sure I made myself look like an idiot, but its not the first time and sure won't be the last.

[mybeagles]

When I first started judging I set out to place all the "clean running dogs"..........I like many others was sick of all the "rough ones"

I was given a class of dogs and had never seen or heard of any of them. Didn't know any of the owners either.......I started running my butt off out the gate to observe as many checks, marked lines, jumps, hunt, etc.....at the end of the day my judging partner and I were pretty much in full agreement...... I was thinking to myself "we placed the best 5 hounds here today".

After the results were read a gentlemen came up to me, thanked me for judging and said, "4 of those 5 hounds placed last weekend and the 5th just finished for his FC title". Thats not what I wanted to hear. I thought for sure we had selected the "clean running dogs" not those "rough dogs" that had been placing.

Its amazing to me how the same dogs place week after week with all the different judges they face.......I wonder if those dogs really are the best that day....I wonder if there is more consistency than anyone realizes........


Mybeagles

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

As stated in a earlier post, Yes i have known several little pack fellas including myself that ventured to the deep end of the Midwest, but i aint seen very many Midwest Boys show up at Little pack hunts.It was descriped to me by the Die Hards that Arha stood For American Retarded Hound Assc. Never the Less both assc have good and bad IDEALS.And to answer the original Question Yes its still a big Deal to make A FC

[Jamie Rice]

I agree with much of what's been said here. Yes there's more rougher dogs placing today. Nevertheless that doesn't mean there weren't rough dogs in the beginning, in the middle, or won't be any in the future. It's just that seems percentage wise and number wise there's more today than there was in the past. In essence you're getting beat by quantity not quality. Yes there's some good dogs out there placing and winning. However for the each one that's good there's 5 that's rougher than a cob. Some say they're GREAT ones placing and winning. Well I figure if they were so great your buddies wouldn't have to brag on them so much; the dog's accomplishments would speak for themselves. Seems several guys in the Midwest wish to say this and that about dogs from more "conservative" federations. A few of you may fall over if you knew a few of the field champions in your bloodlines finished for their title in those areas that you're criticizing.

Furthermore liking cleaner closer line running hounds didn't lead to the state brace format is in. But instead being obsessed with a dog making a mistake. Then again I wasn't running brace in the 70's so I guess I should keep my mouth shut and not comment on brace dogs. I figure if a dog isn't making a mistake then it's not trying hard enough to please me. However with that being stated, there's a limit and a point of repetition at where that mistake becomes a fault. And that fault warrants elimination from the pack or furthermore being ultimately culled by it's owner. I agree brace format today is unfit to hunt over, but where do you think the other end of the spectrum is headed? More and more you hear folks questioning whether this FC or that FC could run and jump a rabbit by themselves! I THINK AKC COULD LEARN A LOT FROM ARHA PROGRESSIVE PACK AND UKC PERFORMANCE PACK IN REQUIRING A CHAMPION TO BE ABLE TO DO IT BY THEMSELVES BEFORE A DOG ACHIEVES ITS TITLE. Some of you are probably saying, wow the sky is falling chicken little... laugh if you choose, ignore if you wish, and you'll end up in the same state brace is!

Training judges isn't going to solve anything, when the person training them isn't following the rules strict enough or has a philosophy of judging them the way they run opposed to JUDGING THEM THE WAY THEY SHOULD BE RUNNING. I'll admit I'm not a fan of all-age trials. However years ago there was a lot more All-Age trials and seems you had to cut your teeth in them as well as Derby trials before you got asked to judge licensed trials. These days I think many guys are being picked to judge just because they can run fast or finished a few dogs and suddenly get their licenses. For many of you that are criticizing some of the older judges that may not get around as good as a young judge, that older guy will see more on one pass than some of us younger guys in four! Furthermore ask a few of the newbies why they got their licenses and see what kind of answers you get. I'll kiss your behind if there's not four or five that tell you they got their licenses because someone told them that's the only way they were going to win or place their dogs. Makes you wonder right?

A few of you that complain on these boards and complain in the general public would have a lot stronger argument and your opinion mean more if you weren't running to the stud section or results and blowing up swinging, skirting, mouthy, etc. etc. dogs to be the next coming. Do y'all change your opinions just because it's your buddy's dog winning and placing?

And oh yeah it's the MIDWEST FEDERATION now not ASSOCIATION. :-)

But to answer the question in the post. NO it's not a big accomplishment to me, but yet I still trial because I want to compete and see what everyone else has. Just because my dog has a FC in front of it's name doesn't mean it's a better dog to me, but instead just to everyone else that's just breeding red to red.

[ray s]

For many of you that are criticizing some of the older judges that may not get around as good as a young buck... that older guy will see more on one pass than some of us younger guys in four!

AMEN!!!!!!!

[Bobby Vest]

Best discussion I have seen in several years and it's getting better.

[LaMarr Rhoades]

there was dogs mentioned on here that are very clean running dogs,do you feel these dogs are the exception or the rule

[Ron Conroe]

jamie, very well said even though no one well listen. you hit the nail on the head .

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

Fuzz for Prez. Very Well Stated Mr Rice.To add to your post if a dog can not run and circle its own rabbit it should have a title.Dead. Its good to see Don, Yourself , and Greg post you boys were there in the beginning.I still think the Midwest is top shelf federation.I do however find myself questioning some calls that are made but dont we all? I am glad we have this federation in kentucky as i have seen some nice hounds as well as some shiteaters and had the oppurtunity to make some life long friends.

[jdmart]

Jamie made some good points. A FC absolutely should be able to circle a rabbit! I would be nice if every registry made champions complete this task. I guess I have two pet peeves when it comes to faults, dogs that don't know where the check area is at and dogs that bark all the way through the check area. One is just as bad as the other. This whole conversation has been on rough hounds. Babbling bothers me about the same.
Several of the hounds we run today did come from registries we consider more conservative. I own one that one that is half cottontail bred and very proud of it. One of the hardest hunting hounds I own. All these comments about "rough" hounds. When I finished her there were a couple of hounds in the 13" female class that ran a little different style than her. I knew that when we got down to the final five if they where in there I probably wasn't winning that day. The judges were looking for a little different hound than I was running. But, that is what makes the world go round, I finished her. I liked my dog, those guys liked theirs and that why we have such a great sport with different bloodlines, opinions, agreements and disagreements. It's not life or death. Thats why we go out each week run our hounds under different judges and different running grounds.

[Ohiohntr]

Good post Jeff...kinda sums it up nicely